DKC Atlas Forum

[Simion32]

>>> DONATE TO SIMION32 HERE <<<
(DELTA PROJECT DOES NOT INCLUDE
THIRD PARTY COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL)

[edevore]

Why can't you just recover your data using a Ubuntu Live CD/DVD then reinstall the Operating System on the current hard drive or buy another hard drive if the virus is in the boot sector (you can wipe that sector instead) then reinstall?

[Simion32]

Because the mainboard is bricked!! That is, the main computer is fried.

[edevore]

I thought about that earlier, It's hard to imagine a modern computer virus is capable of doing severe hardware damage... 3-5k that's a pricy motherboard none the less, was the cpu threads unlocked and water cooled or something?

[Markster]

That happened to my computer from 2007 last year, that sucks.

I can probably donate next month or the month after.

Edit : If I can get a PayPal account soon I could send you about $30, that should be September or October.

[Simion32]

I can confirm that the expected price range is indeed a good estimate for the funds required to fully get things going.

Towards the lower end of the $3K-$5K range may be OK enough to get the machine itself, but I'm lacking on interim funds to deal with other physical items that will be needed in the future. There's quite a lot of unlisted development devices/discs/blah that I've had to cut down on for a while, so...

[Kingizor]

Towards the lower end of the $3K-$5K range may be OK enough to get the machine itself

Where are you getting these numbers? Skylake is only just out and even then a very high end PC sans GPU+extras should be about a quarter of your lower end estimate. You bought a capable GPU not too long ago, so that's a potentially large expense out of the way already.

Some specs and/or prices estimates on individual components you'd want might be helpful. It's very easy to rip yourself off if you can't balance between what's out there and what you're looking for. It's not uncommon for instance to see people get a nice little mid-range build and a $300 1500-watt PSU along with it, when a nice $50 500-watt one would be more than enough for most builds.

[Simion32]

Not getting a cheap machine. Getting an upgrade. Been stuck with the same old one for too many years. Can not reuse components (except the disc drives); too model specific / old hardware.

I'm not able to test what I want (extra large screens, multiscreen, etc) with the GPU I already have, and I want an upgrade, though it will cost just about as much as the old one.

This is not about economically skimping on quality for cost's sake, it's about getting a full-on upgrade. The processor itself is expected to be at least $1K out of that $3K lower bound.

[Kingizor]

That price I came up with is based on what I'd consider to be the best performing consumer grade hardware available.

The extreme series of CPUs are bad value for the $1k price considering that the best consumer grade processors perform similarly at a fraction of the price. Most people wouldn't consider the extra few percent in some limited scenarios to be worth the extra cost.

Intel i7 5960X - $1050
Intel i7 5930K - $580
Intel i7 4790K - $340
Intel i7 4790 - $310
Intel i5 4690K - $240
Intel i5 4690 - $225

The "K" suffix means it has an unlocked multiplier, so good for overclocking. Otherwise, money can be saved by getting the same model without the suffix.

The added cost of the extreme series can mainly be attributed to the presence of more physical cores. The performance the individual cores across most of the higher end CPUs is extremely similar. The only advantage of the i7 series itself over the i5 series is hyperthreading, which offers little to no advantage in most situations. The i7 series is regularly cited as being better for people who almost exclusively use software that can actually take advantage of multiple cores, things such as video processing or 3D modelling. With a single application using many cores, there is the penalty of managing the concurrency which in turn slows things down. Even the OS managing different applications is going to encounter the same problem. In typical real world situations the difference between different models is smaller to non-existent.

The best bang for buck high performance CPUs are the high end i5s. Anything higher gets hit by diminishing returns in performance vs price very quickly. Even a low end i3 would probably outperform your old system with ease. As I said before, the Skylake 6k lineup is in the process of being introduced at the moment, so it might be worth waiting a little while for something better.

—

GPUs are usually the biggest rip off in a build. A new lineup each year and the difference is usually more marginal than with CPUs, but people will happily tell you the complete opposite depending on where you ask. Then there are different models specifically for niche features like 10-bit colour, gsync/freesync, and so on.

I really don't know how you expect to test high resolutions. Most GPUs will refuse to output anything above what a monitor supports natively, and most monitors aren't going to attempt to display anything larger than what they can handle. Trying to output 4k onto a 1080 monitor isn't going to end well. I have all those problems and more with my own GPU, which often refuses to output display modes that my display does happen to support.

Most of the high end CPUs these days actually double as GPUs if you have a compatible motherboard. A good discrete GPU will typically perform better though. I hear it's driver support that keeps Intel GPUs down.

There isn't anything else in a system that would or should cost anything close to the CPU or GPU. Motherboard, RAM, and a PSU are much smaller expenses in comparison. At any rate, you should consider being a bit more economical, especially if you intend to buy with other people's money.

[Simion32]

I've posted up a very rough breakdown on the first post.

Note that I'm going to be testing very extreme things and every bit of power is going to help. I'm maxing RAM, and prices there do not seem to be any different for used etc. ram sticks. Might as well be getting those new.

DELTA's key needs fall directly on processor speed, available memory, and memory speed. Hard drive performance is secondary at best. Every ounce of power I have will enable me to test the program more thoroughly.

The GPU would tackle a few things the current lowish-end card cannot - and it would be nice to have a backup sitting around in the event of a failure.

EDIT: A really big consideration is that of compile speed and number of code-compiling processes running on those cores, and thus, number of cores.

[Kingizor]

That $700 between the 5960X and the 4790K shouldn't be taken so lightly; the difference could buy a very capable system on its own. I think the difference you'd notice even with any of the quads would be more than enough for you, but hey it's up to you. I believe one of the bottlenecks of most build systems is disk access, so a RAMdisk or even just a solid state drive should net a significant increase alone. Combined with any modern CPU it's already going to speed up your compilation by many orders of magnitude.

ram $400

$400 for RAM should be enough for about 64GB, right? I'd be aiming for 32GB myself if only for RAMdisk shenanigans, and even that seems plenty..?

components/cooling/power/etc $600

That $600 you've allocated for miscellaneous components seems a bit excessive as well. I can't imagine essential items such as a PSU, motherboard and case could approach that figure. Even with optional extras such as an SSD and a few hard drives it probably still wouldn't come close. I wonder how much a motherboard with 4x16GB slots would cost anyway?

I don't know too much about coolers. It's my understanding that stock options should be fine unless you're overclocking or subject to some other strange circumstance like living on the sun. I recall hearing that certain CPUs don't include a haetsink/cooler, but that might apply to whether you buy retail or OEM. Might want to check that.

The GPU would tackle a few things the current lowish-end card cannot

Such as? What would another one do that the old one can't? It's a GT610 if I recall? It's definitely low end but it's certainly not going to be lacking any functionally compared to more expensive cards, at least non-specialty ones. It almost seems like you're throwing money around/away.

multiscreen setup $200

Monitors are nice, but are they a priority?

stereoscopic 3D dev/equipment $500

What?

anything else ------> Extra funds

Maybe you should install a high end security system so no-one steals your $3000 PC? You'd probably need to buy a second PC to run it, perhaps you should have another fundraiser? You can have every inch of your home surveyed 24 hours a day by high end cameras that capture 4k@120hz, and a bunch of those microphones spies use that can hear a pin drop through thirty feet of concrete.

[Simion32]

The GFX card goes with the stereoscopic 3D development (that is, a fancy 3D glasses type thing) hardware, and the ability to run 4 screens at a time. I've got a few features with DELTA that will use 3D, so it's on the list. Not essential right from the get-go, but is an eventual.

As for the extra screens, I could cut that $200 figure significantly, but it's just an estimation. Perhaps some ~$100.

I am also accounting for upgrade-ability for the few things that aren't on my list (like multiple-GFX-card setups).

Maybe you should install a high end security system ... through thirty feet of concrete.

I don't think I'm paranoid enough to do something as crazy as that.

[Kingizor]

I think you're taking things too far. Your old PC did you well enough for a considerable amount of time, did it not? Surely better than the computerless predicament you find yourself in now? Whilst the unfathomable hardware you've listed might be very desirable to you, someone with no PC and no money shouldn't be so greedy. A saner choice would be to figure out a plan for the interim between now and your dream build. Perhaps a much cheaper but still capable solution could tide you over until you have enough money in place to get the no expenses spared machine? You could always sell on the intermediary PC in the future. The alternative of waiting a very long time until you have enough money in place for the excessive build probably isn't appealing?

Couldn't you have gotten a summer job to help offset the cost a bit instead of relying solely on donations? I'd imagine your inability to work on DELTA would free up a significant amount of time for other ventures.

[Phyreburnz]

I have to agree with Kingizor. The other thing you have to consider is that there are maybe like twenty people that *actively* use the forum. You're never going to get that much of a donation from here... Have you thought about maybe a go fund me if you're *really* content on that steep price?

Geez, I mean I'm somebody that just graduated from college and I'm up to my eyeballs in debt. I'm sure I'm not the only one with a similar story.

Also, if your system was bricked by a virus, what is to stop a $3000 machine from getting the same virus?

[Kingizor]

From what I've been able to piece together, he discovered a virus (?), proceeded to take everything apart for some reason and then the machine refused to power on when put back together. It's possible that it could be something as simple as forgetting to connect something on the motherboard, connecting something improperly or perhaps even forgetting to turn the switch on the PSU back on.

Many desktop PCs will emit a beep shortly after power on to signify that POST is successful. If the POST fails for whatever reason, you're supposed to connect the bare motherboard to the power supply and try powering it on. If it does power on, you switch it off and reconnect components one at a time until you encounter something that doesn't work.
If the whole thing doesn't power on at all, then I suppose you'd want to remove everything from the motherboard (CPU, RAM, disk drives, etc), connect it to the power supply and try to power it on. If it doesn't power on at all then it's clearly either the motherboard or the PSU at fault. Be careful when handling the motherboard as well, since it's easy to short them if you're careless. Occasionally you'll hear of someone assembling a PC for the first time who won't know about risers and will end up frying their expensive new motherboard.

If a component is damaged or non-functional after handling, the most probably cause is ESD. You can get wrist straps to keep yourself grounded when working with electronics, but when working with PCs it's usually enough just to keep in regular contact with the chassis. The working environment can contribute to buildups of static as well. One of my old college lecturers claimed such things were more common in the U.S. because of the abundance of nylon carpeting, whereas here in the U.K. we apparently favour other materials such as wool or polyester.

[Simion32]

Nah, the motherboard is totally dead. Most likely ESD that I never detected. Processor could or could not be OK.

I don't expect all that much to come from atlas, I thought it would be a nice stepping point to get it posted up *somewhere* and then try to spread the fundraiser by other means. Best and most relevant place is atlas, since this has been my updates hub since I've begun this venture.

I've taken into consideration that this is indeed a very large sum of money; however, I think there may be some ways to soften the blow. Let's just call it $2400+ at the minimum boundary then; forget the crazy $5K figure.

*re-adjusts the main post*

[Markster]

I recently built an AMD based computer (for my 18th birthday in June).

On the Intel side (Intel is better than AMD despite the fact I got AMD), Skylake just came out (i7 6700K/i5 6600K), but for the most powerful computing Haswell E (i7 5820K/i7 5960X) is the most powerful option.