DKC Atlas Forum

[Tiptup Jr.]

Well Soniccuz, you're right about one thing: I DO let Jungle Beat get away with a lot more because it does not call itself a Donkey Kong Country. The developers stated from the get-go that they were doing their own thing and not trying to pretend it was something it wasn't. Because of that, Jungle Beat is an incredibly fun, unique, and visually stunning experience.

Guys, let's all be honest here: Returns is JUST okay. It's decent, but not extraordinary. It does NOT, in any way, deserve the Donkey Kong Country name. If they had called it something different and been a little gentler to the fans, I would welcome it into the canon with open arms. But I can't. It would be like Super Mario Bros. 4 without Bowser, or Banjo-Threeie without Grunty (hell, she was even in Nuts & Bolts!)

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: when a Mario baseball game pays more respect to the Donkey Kong mythos than a game with Donkey Kong Country in the title, you have a serious, serious problem. Tropical Freeze is looking to undo some of Retro's past mistakes but I am now of the opinion that "Country" should be left out of the title. There are, and will always be, THREE Donkey Kong Country games.

Also, Paon was great.

[Blaziken257]

It would be like Super Mario Bros. 4 without Bowser

You have clearly never played Super Mario Bros. 2, then, since it doesn't have Bowser. So, by your logic, it's bad because it's different. Makes a lot of sense.

So DKCR and DKC:TF don't have Kremlings. This "flaw" (I wouldn't call it that, but it seems to be that way for you) shouldn't be enough to ruin the game. They still play and feel like DKC, and frankly, the level designs, with their constant dynamically changing layouts, are more interesting than the mostly static level designs in the SNES games. That's not to slam the SNES games, but DKCR and DKC:TF certainly are refreshing to play. The difficulty alone is enough for me to love Retro's DKC games -- it's not uncommon for me to blast through Rareware's DKC and DKL games and only lose a few lives nowadays. Going back to the Kremlings, it also seems refreshing to see new types of enemies; if DKC games only ever had Kremlings, it would eventually get old.

Really, your anti-DKCR opinions were obnoxious in 2010, and they're still obnoxious now (as well as your DKC:TF opinions, to a lesser extent). We get it; they're not how you want them to be. I really tried to back off for a long time about this, but now I have felt that I should get this off my chest.

[Tiptup Jr.]

Wrong. I've played the crap out of SMB2. But the series was young as hell at that point and Bowser was not as inextricably linked to Mario as he is now. Plus, he was in Lost Levels (the "true" SMB2.) Read what I said: Super Mario Bros. FOUR, not Two.

I did not say Tropical Freeze's lack of Kremlings is a flaw; it WAS a flaw in Returns because Donkey Kong Country can't really "return" without its main damn villains.

Sorry you consider anyone with a different opinion to be obnoxious, but that's not my problem.

[Phyreburnz]

To be fair, super Mario bros 2 is NOT a true Mario game. It was its own game originally, but to make them sell in at least the US, they made them Mario characters.

[nintendobarn]

In my opinion the returns in DKCR makes perfect sense, it's the first DKC since the original where Donkey Kong is a playable character.

I also belive that they kept country in the title to point out that it is a platform game. If it was called Donkey Kong Returns it would sort of make more sense that it was something based on the old arcade game.

[Tiptup Jr.]

To Phyreburnz: Yes, but even that wasn't the point I was trying to make: Super Mario Bros. 2 wasn't the grand return of a beloved series after an over decade-long absence. The comparison is irrelevant and contrived.

To nintendobarn: That literally could not make less sense. Jungle Beat was also a platformer.

[Gaz]

I know this might be off-topic, but I really dislike it when people criticize Super Mario Bros. 2. . I do think that there are five DKC installments, three of which are the originals and classics.

[leo_core]

Strengths:
Good theme
Lush graphics
David Wise composing
Dixie!

Weaknesses:
No Kremling's again.
Gameplay.

I do not understand why they do not keep the gameplay as it was on the SNES where you could play with each kong as standard.
Had the Partner system switch, partner system follow and teaming up system. The gameplay used in DKC Returns is not better than the SNES gameplay (in my opinion).

I understand that the gameplay should evolve, but evolve into something better and more improved.

Please can someone clarify a question? Tell me if I'm right or not: Who programmed the SNES DKC was the RARE Team and who program the DKC retunrs and actual program DKC Tropical Freeze was the Retro Studios? (sorry bad eng)

[Simion32]

DKC SNES Trilogy = Rareware (pre-Microsoft-buyout)

DKCR/DKCTF = Retro Studios

[leo_core]

Thanks Simion! So is explained because the gameplay is so absurdly different.

I think that having the same people who programmed the DKC for SNES programming the new DKC's is impossible since Microsoft acquired Rareware is not?

This is unfortunate! Not wanting to discredit the incredible work that Retro Studios does, but unfortunately it is not better than Rare made with SNES ​​in terms of gameplay in my opinion. Unfortunately the destiny separated the creation of its creator.

[Markster]

Micro$oft sucks!

[Kiddy14]

I think that having the same people who programmed the DKC for SNES programming the new DKC's is impossible since Microsoft acquired Rareware is not?

Well, most Rareware employees have already left Rare ever since Microsoft bought the company. David Wise returning is just an example of people from Rare working again for Nintendo. However, I think letting the music composer get back in is easier than letting the programmers in, since DKCR has nothing about the SNES DKC gameplay.
Even the GBA ports of the SNES games weren't made by the same people and that's why they're so different.

I'm eagerly expecting the game anyway =D

[Matt534Dog]

I literally just did backflips over hearing that David Wise is returning!

Honestly, I loved DKCR, so I'm very eager to play this one (especially considering I already have a Wii U).

[leo_core]

Yes, you're right. It would be difficult to gather the original team of programmers that made DKC on the SNES. But I still think Retro Studios could keep the same gameplay system.

I forgot to mention the most important, something that really differentiates and highlights Snes Donkey Kong Country from other platform games.
When you touch an enemy you lose a kong (or dies if you no have a kong partner).

Now we have a kind of life bar (which are the hearts). The Retro Studio have exchanged replacing it by a method that is used in most platform games made ​​the game lose something that was unique in its essence.

I did not come here to be doing only negative criticism with the Retro Studios did with DKC, I am also eager to play DKCTF.
Graphically it is a piece of art work and has really impactful innovations. But I was disappointed by the game having lost much of their original essence =/

Edit:
Well, you can have two kongs during the game and lose Diddy to be alone with Donkey Kong.
But now there is a "life bar" and when you lose Diddy he simply falls off the screen, do not run away like before. These details were in the SNES DKC be absolutely original.

[Super Luigi!]

Every time I seem to go away for a few weeks, something big shows up. Perhaps I should stay away more often?

Anyway, this truly is amazing, and I do think that Kiddy could and should be the fourth Kong. If this game is supposed to have SMB2 mechanics, then:
DK = Mario
Diddy = Luigi
Dixie = Princess Peach Toadstool
Kiddy = Toad

Funky could be the Warp Zones.

[Jeffrey_Bones]

Ok this whole denouncing the new games from the tittle Donkey Kong Country is kind of silly if you ask me. Yes it sucked that the Kremlings NOR THE ANIMAL BADDIES from the original trilogy didn't appear in DKCR but I wouldn't denounce the new games simply for that. The only thing Retro needs to do in this game before release is include more references to the old games like Funky Kong Candy and other characters. I bet money Enguarde will be in this one the stage is all set for his return with swimming levels implemented. Also it wouldn't hurt to bring back animal baddies like Zingers and Gnawtys. (remember Cat o Nine tails?) Anyway DKC2 was epic because of the pirate themed Kremlings and now they are doing a Viking theme? I like it! the new enemies actually look good in this one! (brain washing Tikis suck!) I hope this game does for this generation what DKC2 did back in the day. I look forward to this release!

[sonosublime]

Exactly. If you want to separate the old from the new, you could think of the SNES games as the 'classic' DKC.

I would really like it if they brought back the Zingers though. They were a staple of the DKC series.

[BigDonkey101]

To be fair, super Mario bros 2 is NOT a true Mario game. It was its own game originally

Wrong. Doki Doki Panic(the game that became Super Mario Bros 2 in the US) was originally a Super Mario 2 prototype. So in a way it was always meant to be a Mario game.

[Wario20]

I would love to see Chunky as the fourth playable character but I doubt it though, They need to add him in more games.

[Tiptup Jr.]

To be fair, super Mario bros 2 is NOT a true Mario game. It was its own game originally

Wrong. Doki Doki Panic(the game that became Super Mario Bros 2 in the US) was originally a Super Mario 2 prototype. So in a way it was always meant to be a Mario game.

I've never heard this before... source plox?

Returns sucks lololol

[Phyreburnz]

Wrong. Doki Doki Panic(the game that became Super Mario Bros 2 in the US) was originally a Super Mario 2 prototype. So in a way it was always meant to be a Mario game.

Actually, the gameplay was just based off of Mario. The game itself was made to promote a television show.
http://www.giantbomb.com/yume-kojo-doki ... 030-33894/

[BigDonkey101]

I've never heard this before... source plox?

Nintendo's Kensuke Tanabe recently went into detail about the development process of Super Mario Bros. 2.



"The idea was that you would have people vertically ascending, and you would have items and blocks that you could pile up to go higher, or you could grab your friend that you were playing with and throw them to try and continue to ascend. ...the vertical-scrolling gimmick wasn't enough to get us interesting gameplay," Tanabe said. "The game was mocked up (so that) when the player climbed about two-thirds of the way up the screen, it would scroll so that the player was pushed further down. Miyamoto looked at it and said, 'Maybe we need to change this up.' (We need to) make something a little bit more Mario-like. As long as it's fun, anything goes (is what Miyamoto said)."



This eventually led to Nintendo developing Doki Doki Panic, which was turned into Super Mario Bros. 2 for North American audiences.



"Because we had to make this change, we had the opportunity to change other things. We knew these Fuji TV characters wouldn't be popular in America, but what would be attractive in America would be the Mario characters. When the characters got shrunk down to a smaller version of themselves, it was easy to sneak through parts of the level that you weren't supposed to go through, so we made their heads bigger so they would get caught on those things," Tanabe concluded.

Source: http://www.qj.net/wii/news/kensuke-tana ... otype.html

[Phyreburnz]

...You know that quote says NOTHING about that game being a "Mario 2 prototype," right? Japan already had a direct sequel to Mario bros (which was Super Mario Bros Lost Levels). America didn't take that game because it was too similar to the first Mario and too hard. So America took Doki Doki panic and made it easier and put Mario characters in it and called it Super Mario Bros 2. After that, Japan decided to make it into the sequel to Mario Bros, rather than lost levels, even though it was out first.

Also, the only place I could find the claim of Doki Doki panic being a Mario prototype was wikipedia... but even the Mario wiki said that Doki Doki panic was exactly what I just said.

[Tiptup Jr.]

I like this thread we're posting in, the Super Mario Bros. 2 topic.

Anywayy, who do we all think the fourth character is gonna be? I hope it's this guy! I do NOT think it should be K. Rool, as some have suggested. First off, he's supposed to be hella big and not DK-sized; second, if he does make it in it should be as some type of villain. If not, I'll patiently await his glorious return in Smash.

Also, Qyz, earlier you said something about the DK64 Kongs being clones and not worthy or something (I'm on a phone, it's hard to quote posts) but I respectfully disagree. I viewed it more as world-building. Kiddy and Dixie have siblings? Sure, why not! Let 'em join the fun. I just thought Tiny and Chunky were pretty cool, and plus, Rare built the modern Donkey Kong mythos to begin with; they had the right to add to it as they saw fit!

Speaking of Rare... David Wise! Hell yeah! See, this is why I wish Nintendo woulda had an actual presentation instead of a crappy broadcast, technical problems aside: Mentioning David Wise's involvement is something they certainly would've done on stage and would have prompted an INSTANT standing ovation (similar to Returns' initial unveiling, although admittedly I'm not sure if those people were standing or not.) The showmanship and mystique were just gone this year and you couldn't really gauge peoples' reactions. "Hey, watch this trailer! Then watch this one!" Sigh.

Man, I wish Blaziken would come back and call me obnoxious again for having a different opinion. Ah, the good ol' days!

[Qyzbud]

[...]all of the 'Country Kongs are welcome, but DK64's 'replacement clones', Jungle Beat's anti-Kongs and any other such 'new and terrible' Kongs would just be getting in the way of our nostalgia[...]

[...] I respectfully disagree. I viewed it more as world-building. Kiddy and Dixie have siblings? Sure, why not! Let 'em join the fun. I just thought Tiny and Chunky were pretty cool, and plus, Rare built the modern Donkey Kong mythos to begin with; they had the right to add to it as they saw fit!

You know what? I think I'm inclined to agree with you on this; Tiny and Chunky were reasonable additions to the modern Donkey Kong mythos — I think my dislike for them really just stems from the way Dixie and Kiddy were apparently ousted from the series entirely at that point — and there's been no sign of Kiddy since!

Hopefully that'll all change with Super Mario Brothers 2: Tropical Freeze.

Guys, let's all be honest here: Returns is JUST okay. It's decent, but not extraordinary. It does NOT, in any way, deserve the Donkey Kong Country name.

My turn to respectfully disagree; I personally think Returns is a masterpiece — and a thoroughly worthy installment in the Donkey Kong Country series. Like all games pre/post DKC2*, it's not perfect, but I find its 'mistakes' entirely forgivable... and what it gets right (almost everything, in my humble opinion), it gets so damn right.

*DKC2 does have its flaws — and Uncharted 2 is perhaps 'better' in most ways — but I enjoy using it as a perfection benchmark.

[Red Kiddy Kong]

KIDDY SHOULD BE FOURTH KONG!!!!!!!

[sonosublime]

[...]all of the 'Country Kongs are welcome, but DK64's 'replacement clones', Jungle Beat's anti-Kongs and any other such 'new and terrible' Kongs would just be getting in the way of our nostalgia[...]

[...] I respectfully disagree. I viewed it more as world-building. Kiddy and Dixie have siblings? Sure, why not! Let 'em join the fun. I just thought Tiny and Chunky were pretty cool, and plus, Rare built the modern Donkey Kong mythos to begin with; they had the right to add to it as they saw fit!

You know what? I think I'm inclined to agree with you on this; Tiny and Chunky were reasonable additions to the modern Donkey Kong mythos — I think my dislike for them really just stems from the way Dixie and Kiddy were apparently ousted from the series entirely at that point — and there's been no sign of Kiddy since!

Hopefully that'll all change with Super Mario Brothers 2: Tropical Freeze.

Guys, let's all be honest here: Returns is JUST okay. It's decent, but not extraordinary. It does NOT, in any way, deserve the Donkey Kong Country name.

My turn to respectfully disagree; I personally think Returns is a masterpiece — and a thoroughly worthy installment in the Donkey Kong Country series. Like all games pre/post DKC2*, it's not perfect, but I find its 'mistakes' entirely forgivable... and what it gets right (almost everything, in my humble opinion), it gets so damn right.

*DKC2 does have its flaws — and Uncharted 2 is perhaps 'better' in most ways — but I enjoy using it as a perfection benchmark.

I quite like Tiny and Chunky as well. Lanky can just go away.

I'm not too sure what DKC2 has to do with Uncharted 2. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

[Red Kiddy Kong]

I would really like it to be Kiddy but,if it was Chunky I wouldn't mind2much

[Super Luigi!]

Well I would. I mean, all right, he's Kiddy's brother, so yeah, that's something. However, that would be insulting to us and to Kiddy. What, the Kong that was in one game that many disliked gets a sudden return? That cannot be permitted, even though Retro Studios has a right to do so.

[Red Kiddy Kong]

Well I would. I mean, all right, he's Kiddy's brother, so yeah, that's something. However, that would be insulting to us and to Kiddy. What, the Kong that was in one game that many disliked gets a sudden return? That cannot be permitted, even though Retro Studios has a right to do so.

I see what you are saying

[Qyzbud]

What, the Kong that was in one game that many disliked gets a sudden return? That cannot be permitted, even though Retro Studios has a right to do so.

You do realise that description pretty much applies to Kiddy, too — right? I know Kiddy showed up in DKL3 and the DKC3 GBA port, but I for one have a hard time counting those as proper 'new' Donkey Kong/Country games...

I quite like Tiny and Chunky as well. Lanky can just go away.

Lanky was actually my favourite, which is why I didn't mention him in my 'these Kongs shouldn't return' list. I like that he's a very odd, original and interesting character with unique abilities — and the fact that he's an orangutan on the (good) Kongs' side is a plus, too.

I'm not too sure what DKC2 has to do with Uncharted 2. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

That wasn't meant to be a serious comparison, I just wanted to point out that there are indeed modern games out there with the quality of adventure, characters, scenery, themes, graphics, music and gameplay polish that I have scarcely seen outside of DKC2. I could point out a lot of specific things that make them a bit more comparable, but basically the reason I mentioned them in the same breath is that they're my two favourite games, and for their time (and in my opinion, still today), they were (are!) both breathtaking.

[Red Kiddy Kong]

I still think Kiddy should in it because he needs to make a come back and he is the only other kong in the countries that you could be.

[Rare Lover]

You all realize that DKC3 wasn't made by the same team that made DKC and DKC2 right?

[Qyzbud]

What does that have to do with this discussion?

Edit:

Spoiler!

Ah, were you implying that the creators of Kiddy weren't the same people who created Donkey Kong Country, and as such, their creation (Kiddy) should be no more accepted than any of Rare's post-SNES Kongs? I'm trying my best to make sense of your comment, and its relevance here.

Anyhow, it was my understanding that the development teams were never constant throughout the SNES DKC era; Tim Stamper directed all three games, David Wise did at least some music for each of them, and there were indeed several others who contributed to all three... but there was a lot changing-up that happened — team members who worked on DKC and DKC3, but not DKC2 (Neil Crook, a character artist, and Pete Cox (hardware support) for example), those who only worked on DKC2 (audio programmer P. Wattis) and those who participated in the two sequels, but not the original DKC (such as programmer Trevor Attwood)... so it's not as though you can say there was a 'DKC/DKC2 team' and a separate 'DKC3 team'.

Take a look through the credits pages on, say, MobyGames (DKC, DKC2, DKC3) to see for yourself.

[sonosublime]

One thing that makes me reserve some hope for the tag-team was that in that video, Kensuke Tanabe states that the player will be able to choose who they play as, and that he thinks that boys will play as Diddy and girls will play as Dixie. DK, Diddy and Dixie are all so different, and offer so many different gameplay opportunities.

I'm curious, Qyzbud, what flaws did you see in DKC2? My main complaint is that it ended too quickly ^_^
That said, it still took me years to complete it.

[Qyzbud]

[...]Kensuke Tanabe states that the player will be able to choose who they play as[...]

Of course, they could simply mean players can choose which of DK's little buddies would support the big guy... but I'm hoping you're right.


As for DKC2's flaws; Obviously, I too find it to be pretty close to perfect — but I could certainly list a few things I think it could've done better (mainly things that were done 'better' in the original DKC, but other things, too). I'll save that list for another topic.

[Super Luigi!]

Ah yes, I remember watching this video a few days ago. I think Mr. Tanabe is only talking about choosing what partner you want for DK, but I do hope that he means any combination will be available.



I'm sorry that I didn't share this video sooner. I thought some of the Atlas members would want to see this, but couldn't get around to posting it as soon as I wanted. Nevertheless, I finally embedded a Youtube video correctly!

[sonosublime]

Cool video. Thanks for posting.

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/donkey- ... -interview

This is an interview which confirms that Diddy and Dixie will only be riding on DK's back, as well as the 4th playable character... Goddamn it.

But the swimming aspects sound really cool and exciting at least. And it's cool that Miyamoto has so much passion for the DKC series, and that Retro had to 'earn' the right to revive the series.

[CaptainEddie]

Well, I for one am super excited for this game. I thoroughly enjoyed Returns despite a few nitpicks (rolling through enemies not extending and speeding up your roll, for instance) and this one looks great. Sure, Returns and TF aren't EXACTLY what the SNES games were, but they feel like a natural progression.

As for Diddy and Dixie riding Donkey's back... buh. I would actually kill off Diddy in Returns because his jetpack would always throw off my jumps.

[Tiptup Jr.]

I can't wait to be lambasted for these negative opinions here, but WHY can't they just give people what they want?? With blowing out of the question we can assume right now that Diddy and Dixie have the same abilities as Donkey Kong. Actually moreso, because they can fly. AND you can be them in multiplayer. So why on EARTH can't you be them in single player? Is there actually a reason behind this, or do they not want people to have too much fun?

It's kinda like how you can only be Mario in single player in New Super Mario Bros. Wii. God damn, Nintendo. And yeah, if the fourth character is just another lightweight, back-riding Kong, then I have no idea who it could be. Tiny seems like the only logical choice, with her ponytails and whatnot, but she's currently taller than Donkey Kong (to our knowledge) soo... ?

On a sidenote, I miss Donkey Kong Jr. I'm gonna make an appreciation thread for him soon.

EDIT: I just remembered that without DK you could not do the continuous roll. Still though, shiiiiit.

[Simion32]

After one installment I'm willing to agree with you on that 100%, Tiptup. No questions asked.

The first game was them experimenting, but they've had plenty of time to hear people's opinions. It's like they just don't give a damn about the actual DKC fanbase.

Calling it a "Country" is turning into a genre "marketing word" about the *type* of game it is, not a continuation of the actual SNES Country series.

They may call it country, and it does follow the general platforming formula, but the tag teams that DKC is known for are missing (and, playing as the other character, like we were always able to CHOOSE, is therefore gone as well). I mean, forget the Kremlings right now for the sake of argument - the BASE METHOD OF GAMEPLAY is not even the same, and that's the very first thing in my eyes that sets the Retro series apart from the Rareware series; regardless of what characters have or have not shown up.

I don't feel as attached to all this Retro stuff as I did before during DKCR's launch. I'm going to like DKCTF, but I'm going to treat this series like I did DKJB: A fully and utterly different lineup (that's sort of trying to be like DKC SNES).
(as a matter of fact, I wouldn't have minded seeing another DKJB-2 spinoff title, that was a great game for what it did do).

[sonosublime]

I agree with you guys 100% I just don't know what Retro's deal is...

I didn't mind the missing tag-team so much in DKCR, but this is the first DKC game ever with more than 2 kongs. The tag-team could have made DKCTF into a totally unique kind of game. But Retro has instead made Diddy and Dixie into glorified power-ups. I don't know, man. Such a missed opportunity here.

The rest of the game looks awesome, but this just really annoys me.

[Soniccuz]

On that point I agree. The use of Diddy as a power-up conserns me and needs to be retooled. It makes no logical sense for DK to take a hit and have someone else run off, unless your intent is for that character to come off as cowardly.

[Super Luigi!]

I think we all can agree that Retro is changing the franchise dramatically, for better or for worse. Most likely worse. However, like Simion32, I will still plan on playing this game, and most likely, I will like it. So sorry to get your hopes up Tiptup Jr., but it seems that your opinion is the general one that is widely shared among the DKC fanbase. But that shouldn't be a problem.

[Tiptup Jr.]

So sorry to get your hopes up Tiptup Jr., but it seems that your opinion is the general one that is widely shared among the DKC fanbase. But that shouldn't be a problem.

Anyway, as I've said earlier in this thread I hope they give the soundtrack a proper CD release. I have the DKC3 soundtrack on CD, and it's awesome. Nintendo is really stupid with their soundtracks though.

...I don't have much else to add, I just wanted to acknowledge Super Luigi.

[CatLoverMolly]

I still think Kiddy should in it because he needs to make a come back and he is the only other kong in the countries that you could be.

Makes perfect sense, and I agree that it's likely.

I'm holding out for Funky though, or a 64 Kong...or a Kremling/K. Rool. Maybe the penguins have garnered K. Rool's rage, and in a last-ditch effort he joins forces with DK. Then, if there's a part where K. Rool must fight DK, then the K Rool player could fight the first player, kinda like the 1-on-1 Lego series fights.

But Kiddy is the most likely.

[sonosublime]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObN8-_BYWmw

Video of the boss fight with the seal (world 1), including audio. That rock track sounds awesome. Best boss music of any DKC game in my opinion (except maybe Crocodile Cacophony).

[EvangeliKong]

Hmph. I wish they could have used a remix of DKL Boss Theme.

Also i'm back.

[Super Luigi!]

That person does not know how to play Donkey Kong well. I agree that the music is great, and I bet 5 Golden Bananas that it would sound better in your own home. (Or jungle, cave, apartment, condo, representational facilities, or what have you.) Also, I noticed that we get to, not quite literally but still somewhat, go ape and pound each boss into oblivion.

[Grovyle56]

I CANT WAIT xD