DKC Atlas Forum

[Rare Lover]

With DK having appeared in many games it often gets you wondering what is and isn't canon. Often times the question is asked "is this canon?" "is that canon?" I personally think the better question to ask is what's not canon.

DK (and fellow Kongs) has appeared in the following games:

Donkey Kong Country , Donkey Kong Country 2, Donkey Kong Country 3
Donkey Kong Land, Donkey Kong Land 2, Donkey Kong Land III
Diddy Kong Racing, Diddy Kong Racing DS
Donkey Kong 64
Donkey Konga, Donkey Konga 2
Donkey Kong Jungle Beat
DK King of Swing, Donkey Kong Jungle Climber
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast
Mario Kart 64, Mario Kart Double Dash!!, Mario Kart Wii, Mario Kart Super Circuit, Mario Kart DS, Mario Kart Arcade GP, Mario Kart Arcade GP 2
Mario Party, Mario Party 2, Mario Party 3, Mario Party 4, Mario Party 5, Mario Party 6, Mario Party 7, Mario Party 8, Mario Party DS
Super Smash Bros., Super Smash Bros. Melee, Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Mario Golf (64), Mario Golf (GBC), Mario Golf Toadstool Tour, Mario Golf Advance Tour
Mario Tennis (64), Mario Tennis (GBC), Mario Power Tennis, Mario Tennis Power Tour
Mario vs. Donkey Kong, Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2, Mario vs. Donkey Kong Minis March Again!
Mario Superstar Baseball, Mario Super Sluggers
Super Mario Strikers, Mario Strikers Charged
Mario Hoops 3 on 3
Punch-Out!!
And the upcoming Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games (DS & Wii)

So out of all of those games are there any you don't consider canon.

[Jomingo]

Well, as should be expected from most humans, you missed a few games. I don't know if you just weren't listing ports or Japanese only games, but aside from those there are still more missing ones:
Super Mario Kart
You mentioned the new Punch Out, but both the original Punch Out and Super Punch Out feature DK and DKJr in the audience.
DKLIII had a GBC port I believe.
DKC had a GBC port
The DKC trilogy had GBA ports.
Donkey Konga 3
F-1 race for Game Boy
NPC Junglebeat and NPC Mario Power Tennis.
Tetris (NES)
Mario's Tennis (VB)
NES Open Tournament Golf has DKSr.
Game and Watch 1, 2, and 3 for Game Boy Color
Several Japanese only Mario spinoffs...
I'm sure there are others too..

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, everything in which the characters appear should be considered canon, unless:
1) It absolutely contradicts something else that is canon.
2) It is so bizarre/ they are so out of character that it can't be canon.

[CaptainEddie]

I usually don't consider the Mario Sports games to be canon. For no real reason, that's just the way I think of it.

[Rare Lover]

I wasn't putting remakes, DK Jr. appearances, or Japanese titles.

Personally I really only kick out Super Smash Bros. games. Even games like Mario Super Sluggers with Baby DK are possible, if Baby Mario and Mario can exist in Partners in Time why not DK and Baby DK in Sluggers? I also don't really consider Japanese titles as they weren't released in English and canon is different in Japan (like how Kaptain K. Rool is not King K. Rool in Japan).

[Jomingo]

Well, I can see the lack of remakes and Japanese titles, but DK Jr. is very canon. Anything in which he appears is just an adventure of DK when he was young. I never realized before that you cut out the entire Arcade series, Cranky would be outraged!

The DKU may not count the Arcades, but I don't see why we wouldn't. They happened, and are mentioned and referenced multiple times throughout the current series.


I think that the SSB games are just trophies brought to life to fight for Master Hand's amusement, so it's not the real DK.

One more thing. I've heard it more than once before, but where did anybody find out that the Japanese canon is different? The Kaptain vs King problem was only a mistake in Brawl, not a reference to an alternate canon. Sure, the Japanese games have a few differences, but I can't find anywhere that says they have a completely different canon. There was one Japanese Wiki that stated a few things that were very different from the normal canon, but that could very possibly have been a mistake, as it was a Wiki.

[Rare Lover]

I was just saying that I didn't include them on the list, not that they're not canon. And the mistake was made in DKC instruction booklets before SSBB. I personally consider SSB to be a magical glove bringing a Nintendo fan's toys to life (like Frosty's hat). SSBM follows the same glove only this time he turned Bowser into Giga Bowser or something. And SSBB is just an alternate reality.

I consider the arcade titles to be canon as well as Super Mario Kart, but the Game & Watch titles aren't in my opinion (like DK Circus and the hockey one).

[Jomingo]

I don't see why not, they are as canon to me as any of the early Mario Sports titles.

[Rare Lover]

Because they're little electronic games with no real purpose, why would DK be in Mario's Circus? It's the same reason why I don't really consider DKCBM canon. The only pre-DKC games I consider canon are DK, DK Jr., DK 3, DK Jr. Math, SMK, and YIDS (which is only pre-DKC in the plot-line).

[Jomingo]

Well, if you don't consider those canon, then why would you consider DK Jr. math canon? It's just a math game with a strange DK twin that it never explained.

[Rare Lover]

Good point, I just thought that because it was on the NES, off the list goes Jr. Math.

[CM August]

Personally the only games I would regard as canon are the Arcade trilogy, DKC/DKL trilogy, DKR and DK64. Everything else distills or outright taints the series. Not to slight all those other titles mind you, but a robust and tightly-focused continuity is something DK could have sorely used. Not that the very concept of DK 'canon' exists outside our own minds, but anyway...

[Rare Lover]

No King of Swing or Jungle Climber? I can understand dumping the Mario titles, and hell, I can even see the dumping of GCN titles and the Wii game, but why those? If I was getting really picky then I would chop it down to Arcade titles, DKC/L Hexalogy, DKR, DK64, Konga duology, Peg swingers, and DKRDS. Pretty much everything with an actual story that is a DK title. I really just don't see a point in considering non-DK titles non-canon unless there is no way they could have happened (Smash Bros). Is there any good reason to assume DK didn't go race in go-karts with Mario?

[CM August]

With the series in the miserable state it's in now, I've simply narrowed things down to the games that best represent DKC. Which are the games that actually need to be rembered? The cameo games, however many there be or how popular some are, have done far more to damage DK's image than help it. What they have helped with is the notion that DK and his buddies are second-rate Mario characters who only show up in sports and gimmick titles.

The same principle applies to the peg swingers and bongo games: even if they weren't gimmick titles, and some have thrown more bones to the fans than others, they futzed around too much with several key elements of DKC. Those rotten new character designs for one, whether they originated as a whim from PAON or a mandate from Nintendo, have replaced the originals as the new face of DKC that everyone else now follows. For the sake of the series, and everybody's perception of it, such things ought to be ignored. Future titles should draw from the source, not watered-down variations that are a shadow of DK's former self. Like I said though, this is all pipe dream nonsense anyway.

[Jomingo]

Well, the cameo titles may have helped push the idea that DK is a Mario spinoff that is no more unique than Yoshi or Wario, but why is that? Because that is the way Nintendo always has and always will think. To the head honchos at Nintendo, DK is a Mario spinoff, and that image will be pushed with or without the Cameos. It's gonna happen, there's not much you can do about it. Even non-Mario sport cameos do it. Brawl, for instance, has all the Mario characters in the first column, while DK, Diddy, Wario, and Yoshi are in the next. This seems to imply that DK and Diddy are grouped into a "Mario spinoff" category.

No matter what, that image will be pushed. Whether that inflicts upon the quality of the game is up to you. I mean, yeah that's annoying in Brawl, but Brawl is still a great game with a lot of DKC references and throwbacks. Mario Super Sluggers may group Wario, Yoshi, and DK in a similar fashion, but it also includes a really cool DK Jungle part of the story mode and a lot of DK characters. Sure it's not the greatest representation of DKC, but it's a good game nonetheless.

Maybe games these days don't represent DKC down to the exact degree. But hey, DK64 is also nothing like DKC in gameplay or spirit. It's Banjo-Kazooie in the Jungle, from the characters to the gameplay to the music. But because it's made by Rare I guess that means it upholds the "DKC" spirit, while games like JC which are awesome apparently aren't canon for the sole fact that the characters don't act or look exactly like the did in DKC.

The series evolves. I know. Rare knew it. With every single game starting at DKL the series has changed repeatedly until we finally get to where we are now. Whether you like where we are or not, that's what it is. It's "canon" unless there's any reason to believe so other than "it's not DKC enough".

[CM August]

It's important to identify which changes are good and which ones suck. Take good, block bad. DK64 was greatly inferior to the DKC trilogy, but still fared much better than JC and the like, namely in characterization. It's worth keeping for K. Rool's portrayal alone. And the whole discussion of canon is meaningless in this context, so there's no harm being anal about what counts on a discussion board. My comments aren't a reflection of how things are, but how they should be. Probably should have clarified that earlier.

[Rare Lover]

Jungle Climber felt a lot more like DKC than DK64. And there is NO way you can kick out those DK games and let in DKR which has two DK characters.

[CM August]

What's the problem with DKR? It didn't step on anybody's toes, unlike Jungle Climber where K. Rool is depicited as a thug with a small gang. In DK64 he had an appropriately kingly dialect, yet in every subsequent game he talks like Bowser-lite. That and his idiotic new appearance (to say nothing of everyone else) are reason enough to leave it alone. Allow me to elaborate though.

Think of it as a threshold of crap: DK64 pretty much dances right on it, but the game had a lot of relevant, series-building stuff that makes it worth keeping. Outside of the unwelcome Banjo-esque elements, everyone still looked the same, acted perfectly in-character and we got three fine new additions to the Kong family. K. Rool got excellent screentime and was in top form besides the disappointing final boss, and Cranky's comments in both the manual and throughout were priceless. What's more, none of the unwelcome deviations were slated to return in future titles.

What have post-DK64 titles given us? Bubble chins, toothy grins, mischaracterizations, and a garish visual overhaul that not only doesn't even touch the originals, but became the new mainstay for subsequent titles. It all smacks of Nintendo remolding the DK series to better conform to Mario's stylings, and that I think is something that should be strongly fought against. There's now a dire need for the audience to see DKC at its best. Donkey needs to restore and maintain his identity, which in the case of my silly canon pipe dream means sticking to the most important and least harmful titles for reference.

[Jomingo]

DKR is a great game, but can hardly be grouped into your "perfect canon" idea with the DKCs and DK64. It has little or nothing to do with any of the main DK titles other than Diddy, bananas, and a kremling. If anything it serves as sort of a bridge between the DK series and spinoffs like BK.

In DK64, not everybody looked the same. Cranky was now a scientist, Funky looked very different and sold you guns, and Wrinkly Kong was a ghost. Dixie and Kiddy were replaced by look-alikes, and K. Rool was given a cliche bond villain role.

You can hardly count any of the current looks as mainstays. Jungle Beat had a very different look for DK, but that didn't stay long. Kos had the cartoony look, and that only lasted one game. JC and Barrel Blast's looks could very easily be replaced when the next game comes around.

Although I agree with you and wish that "the audience could see DK at it's best", but the Donkey Kong series is NOT the DKC series. The DKC's were a trilogy from the early to mid 90's. Sure, they were the best games in the series, but the series has changed over the past 15 years. The Mario series peaked in the early 90's too, but the series is very different now, and you don't see each game trying to recreate SMB3 or SMW. The DKC days are over, and the series isn't going to just keep going back and recreating/imitating the DKC era. Even if we don't like the direction it's going, we should still acknowledge that a dream game that is just like DKC is never going to happen; not just because Nintendo doesn't care, but because that was 15 years ago and the series has moved on.

[CM August]

"Perfect Canon"? You miss the point. The point was simply to take games that don't run roughshod over established elements or have enough good new material to make up for the missteps. DKR was a harmless outing that again demonstrated Diddy's independance. That said, I could strike it from this hypothetical and completely pointless list of interprative canon if it came to that.

Different outfits = different character design right? That's like complaining about Kaptain K. Rool's change to Baron K. Roolenstein. It was a change in roles for that game only, not exactly a first for the series. They weren't changes I particularly liked, but hardly a deal-breaker. Tiny and Chunky were replacements only in gameplay terms; Dixie and Kiddy were simply not present. I'd have liked to see them in, but they were unmarred all the same, and both slated for a comeback. Their siblings were a fine addition to the Kongs.

Cliche Bond villainy? They're standard Evil Overlord conventions, which last I checked has always been K. Rool's job description. Blofeld is simply a popular example, not the source. This game showcased K. Rool exactly how you'd expect: commanding the countless minions of his army in a heartless manner from his throne room. K. Rool had very little in the way of dialogue and cutscenes before this game, so it was a defining moment for his character. Something that recent games steamrolled over.

I should point out that their current appearances are merely the 3D equivalent of the so-called cartoony look established in KoS. Maybe they'll change it. Maybe I'll win the lottery. Who knows? It wasn't the point in this discussion anyway.

That point about Mario contradicts your own argument. Throughout the series' long history, the feel and aesthetics, not to mention character traits, have always remained the same. The depiction of a series depends on nothing other than the creatives themselves. Donkey has degenerated over the years because of pointless, ignorant and careless developer decisions, not because of some unseen, inevitable element of natural progress. I'm tired of people making excuses for this nonsense.

[Jomingo]

I'm not making excuses for it, I'm just saying it is how it is and it could be worse. I mean, the Paon DK games are for the most part good games that bring back long since abandoned characters we thought we'd never see again. They aren't represented the best, but they are represented better than any one else has ever attempted to do since Rare left. I'd rather we continue the path that Paon has taken the series than continue the way Nintendo had intended when they released Jungle Beat. Paon is pretty much solely responsible for keeping DK from becoming a reboot like Jungle Beat tried to make it.


Oh, and the reason Mario hasn't changed very much throughout the years is because they never really built on his character in the first place. You say that there hasn't been any change in personality traits, I say that they've never progressed or developed the character past his 8-bit outings.

None of Paon's decisions have been pointless, ignorant, or careless. You may not like any of their changes, but they weren't because of careless developer decisions, they were just unpopular developer decisions.

[CM August]

Another deceptive notion about the Mario series: the idea that its consistency is owing to its simplicity. Nothing is too simple to screw up. How do you think productions like Disney and Looney Tunes maintained their characters and icons for decades, even generations, despite their original creators being long dead? They didn't stay consistent because of their inherent simplicity; it was owing to the fact that their owners were very meticulous about how they were used. Extensive model sheets, guidelines and do's and don'ts were often provided with each individual character, so the characters would look, talk and behave consistently no matter which studio had the task. This process is still in use today because it's absolutely essential.

In fact, maintaining the DK series would have required even less work than Mario. Nintendo posesses all developmental assets of the DKC series. The characters did not have to endure a difficult transition from 2D to 3D like the Mario series. Every one of the countless characters, objects and visual elements are right there in 3D form, hundreds of times better than conventional model sheets, and still standing head-and-shoulders above Mario's latest 3D models. Nintendo just opted to be idiots and ignore all of it, giving their development teams free reign in how to interpret the series. The fact that Paon's interpretation sucked less than EAD Tokyo's doesn't make the situation any more acceptable.

[Jomingo]

The Paon games are GOOD and they didn't screw anything up too bad. It could be worse. In the world we live in now you should be happy they sucked less and that we even have regular DK appearances at all. The DK series could not survive the Rare split the way you wanted it to under any circumstances. There was too much hostility and there was no way Nintendo would continue the path that Rare had taken with their character.

You can bet your baboon booty this could be so much worse. I am thankful for every little nod to the DKC's we get because we can't take for granted that any appearance by even Diddy is guaranteed to happen again. Things can go very, very bad in a heart beat and DK is not immune to that. Mario is. DK is not anywhere near as respected as Mario.

Sure, it could be better. But not much. There was and is no way they can return to the way you and I expected it to become back when the series was handled by Rare. So I'll take a non-cranky Cranky, and whatever other gripes you have with Paon's games because they don't hinder the experience that much, and I have nightmares about how much worse it could be.

[CM August]

Yes yes, now we reach the crux of the argument: the notion that 'It could easily be much worse, so who are you to complain?' Another hollow means of shining off criticism.

I understand that point of view however: PAON really is a patron saint in comparison to folks like EAD Tokyo and what they wanted to do with the series.

I understand that Nintendo thinks so little of Donkey Kong that it's genuinely surprising his world and supporting cast are even still around in some form, wheras that fact would illicit a big fat 'DUH!' for any other series, nevermind the 4th best-selling Nintendo series of all time.

And I certainly understand people not caring about or even noticing any glaring drop in quality - there is, after all, no accounting for taste.
Does that make it a good excuse? No, but it does serve to illustrate how pathetic the whole situation is.

[Jomingo]

Well, yeah, is it a good excuse? No. Is it true? Hell yes. The Paon games are genuinely fun games and the "glaring drop in quality" is bound to happen when compared to DKC, which is arguably the greatest game ever made. Rare, especially at that point in time, were geniuses. They had almost unlimited resources and creative freedom given to them by Nintendo, and they ran with it, creating some of the greatest gaming experiences of all time in the process. Paon on the other hand, does not have unlimited resources and creative freedom, and I also feel the point should be made that the Peg swingers were handheld games. You can't compare most any game to Rare's DK games because they were so great, let alone a couple of spinoff-handheld games. It's a GBA and DS for christ sakes, and they pulled off some truly great games.
A couple of peg swinging handheld games cannot be compared to DKC, because they obviously aren't meant to be the next big DK game. They were spinoffs, and they were good spinoffs at that.

EDIT: I also think I should point out something you said earlier that I don't agree with. When you were talking about how they maintain the Looney Tunes and that the same process would have been even easier with DK than Mario, I disagree. Sure, there would be no worry when transitioning from 2D to 3D like there would for Mario, but that is only looking at it from a cosmetic standpoint. It would be much harder to capture the DK series personalities and general plot development than Mario, because Mario is such a simplistic series. Sure, like you said, it's not too simplistic to screw up. But the DK series always has been a much deeper experience than any Mario game. That is something that could not transition from Rare's hands to others; in part because it is something that is much harder to put on paper but more so that Rare is the only company that was so passionate about the DK series. In other words, no one else would care as much.

[CM August]

Well here we are again aren't we? The PAON games are a 'blessing' given the utterly wretched circumstances. The punchline is the same however, DK got screwed. Lacking in resources and freedom? They weren't inventing the wheel here, or even re-inventing it: again, all of the resources Rare created are sitting in Nintendo's archives free to use and reference. And unlike the Rare days of old, you don't need a stupidly expensive Silicon Graphics workstation to produce the same stunning visuals. A decent household PC is now capable of it, let alone what developers use. That would have been far easier than what they ended up doing, which was redesigning everything in accordance with their tastes.

I can't believe there is even contention about DK's simplicity. They're incredibly straightforward characters. It can't possibly get any more obvious than Cranky, who grumbles and references his arcade origins in almost every line of dialogue, to say nothing of things like DKC's intro sequence. You have to go out of your way to ignore it, and they did. Visual and character design is even more obvious still; see above.

This stuff wasn't the result of a 'lack' of anything. It was all simply changed on the whim of the developer. They wanted dumbed-down visuals and character design, they wanted a personality-deficient Cranky, they wanted a goofier K. Rool. There was no good reason for any of it.

[Jomingo]

Like I said, they weren't careless decisions and they didn't ignore the character's personalities, they were just unpopular decisions to change them. DK did not get screwed, because here is where you and I disagree: These are great games. The character's personalities aren't completely intact, but they are really great games in spite of that. I guess we've spun this wheel as much as we can because we are going to keep going back to the fact that you hate what they are doing and I'm only mildly disappointed. The goofy K. Rool and un-cranky Cranky were just dumb ideas that they thought were good ones. They are Japanese, which means they do things weird like that, and like I said before these are handheld spinoffs, it's not like they were trying to make the next DKC. Who knows, Paon might be done making DK games anyway, so maybe you'll be a little happier if we go back to limbo and get passed around from developer to developer and get some crappy spinoffs and perhaps a reboot in the process. Or maybe we'll get nothing. Maybe the most DK we'll ever see again will be in various Mario sports games.

Sure you can stand there and reminisce about how you imagined the series to go with Rare at the helm, but I'll be here playing Jungle Climber and having a ball.

[CM August]

"It's just a Japanese thing to do" - The Japanese aren't stupid. It's not the way it is because of the Japanese. I wouldn't deflect criticism of these idiotic changes because of the developer's culture, of all things.

I wouldn't care about it so much if these were the simple harmless spinoffs you make them out to be. Instead, they are the definitive new approach to the characters across all other games. So yes, their messing with things was kind of a big deal. Oh, that's right... according to you, nothing was screwed up because you still happened to enjoy the games. It appears you recognise the situation but prefer to see the glass half full rather than half empty. In that case, you could have simply said that rather than attempting to justify their transgressions.

[Jomingo]

I never implied the Japanese were stupid. I'm just saying these are the people who gave the Kongs an extra finger because they think four fingered characters are a reference to the Japanese Mafia. It's not stupid, but it certainly is a very different culture.

Also, I think I've made it quite clear this whole conversation that I viewed the glass as half full.

[CM August]

I can't help but doubt that their culture has any relevance to a character's established personality. The fingers have an understandable reason, the other doesn't. Nevermind that though:

Also, I think I've made it quite clear this whole conversation that I viewed the glass as half full.

If you had said only that at the outset, there wouldn't have been a need for any further discourse. It's only the constant assertion that the changes were irrelevant or harmless that I fight against. Otherwise, I'm not really concerned about who likes them regardless.

[The Guy]

I have a feeling why Cranky isn't cranky anymore is because we can understand that kind of humor while the Japaneese can't...

[CM August]

See Wes from the game Mother 3, a grouchy old has-been who ceaselessly berates his stupid/lazy/useless son; a fine 'Japanese' example of the archetype.

[Rare Lover]

Doesn't mean Cranky's wasn't lost in translation.

[CM August]

It would be nice if someone here knew Japanese and had Japanese copies of the DK games - just so we'd know for sure whether they drastically rewrote virtually every line of Cranky dialogue or if they simply ignored it in subsequent games. Call me premature, but I'd put money on the latter.

[BigDonkey101]

I only consider the games that Rare(except for the Donkey Kong Land games)made to be canon.

Donkey Kong Land 1&2 have the same story as DKC1&2 have.
Sure DKL1's manual mentions Cranky challenging DK and Diddy to get the bananas back from the Kremlings again to prove that they can be hero's on a 8-bit system.
But I see that as Rare adding humor to the game's manual.

DKL2 has the same plot as DKC2, and takes place on Crocodile lsle, which was destroyed at the end of DKC2.
And DKL3's, find the lost word makes no sense because Kaos is in the game(without DK and Diddy to power him).

[Jomingo]

DKL is not the same as DKC not only because of the story but because the entire game has completely different locations and enemies. It's a new game, not just a port.

[DKC4]

Yes, DKL is different from DKC.
But DKL2 is the same as DKC2. This is more of a 'what if this game was on Game Boy' game!
And DKLIII is different from DKC3

[Mr.Diddy]

(...) (mod removed quote)

Remember when they were action figures and not trophies?